Robert: There is one thing I can tell you for sure. All is well. Everything is unfolding as it should. I can tell you truly that nothing is wrong anywhere. Everything is happening just the way it is supposed to. If you think you have a problem, that's the mistake - thinking you have a problem. As soon as you stop thinking everything will go right.
Student: Isn't everything going right while you are thinking?
Robert: Yes, but you don't know it. Some of us don't think it is because some of us think, “I’ve got a problem,” or, “I'm involved in something I can't handle that's bigger than I am,” or, “Something hurts me,” or “I feel anger.” But I can assure you there is nothing wrong. Nothing has ever been wrong. Nothing is wrong now, and nothing will ever be wrong.
All that you have to do is watch yourself. As soon as your mind starts thinking past your nose, grab it - not your nose, but your thoughts. You can grab your nose too if you want. Grab your thoughts with your mind and put a stop to them any way you can, either by observing the thoughts or by practicing self-inquiring and asking to whom do they come.
Whatever you have to do, do not allow yourself to think. If your mind does not think you will be exceedingly happy. You will have unalloyed happiness. I can assure you of this. Total happiness if you stop yourself from thinking.
Recently someone asked me, "When will I experience self-realization?” This is determined by the consciousness of the person. I have a different answer for everybody because I take each person where they are. This is why I may sound contradictory sometimes. If you ask me a personal question I try to answer you from where you are.
Some people ask me, "Robert, why don't you just speak the highest truth all the time?” Some others tell me to speak so that they can understand what I am talking about. So that is the dilemma. So I do whatever I have to do. I plan nothing. Everything is extemporaneous. I have no rehearsals. I don't write anything down. I just say what comes out of me.
So when someone asks me on the phone, “When am I going to become self-realized,” or says “I have been practicing all week now, and nothing is happening," how do I respond? A man called me yesterday telling me he had been practicing for two weeks, took a seminar and paid seven hundred dollars, and he still isn't realized. I get calls like this all the time.
What you say determines the answer I give you. But there is a standard answer. Think of the question. “When will I, I, I, I, become self-realized, self-realized, self-realized, self-realized?” I usually ask a question before I answer this question. I ask, "Please tell me what do you mean by I?” Then I ask, "What do you mean by self-realization?” They usually become silent. So I ask further, "Who do you think the I is? Who wants to become self-realized?”
If you are speaking about the personal I, the personal I can never be self-realized. The personal I is finite. The finite can never know the infinite. That is why the personal I can never become self-realized. As long as you think you are the personal I, who needs to be self-realized, there never will be a time when you can become self-realized.
The word “self-realized,” what does it mean? It simply means your natural state. It is not something you become. It is something you are. To be self-realized means you wish to experience your natural state. What you want to do therefore is to awaken to your natural state, what you are now, but you've covered it over with the personal I. As long as you keep talking about, "I am this,” and, “I am that,” and, “I need to be self-realized,” or. I need to awaken," or. “I need to do anything,” it will never happen.
This is also true of your problems. When you think, “I have to solve a problem, I have to take responsibility," then you are referring to your personal I, and you will come up with relative ideas, and they will pull you further into problems. You will never resolve that point. Look back at your experience and you will see that what I am saying is true. When you try to use your personal I to solve a problem you may appear to solve it for awhile. Then another one will pop up now and again, and you go through your life trying to solve problem, after problem, after problem. You have to understand and see that intelligently. You have to look at that intelligently and realize that every time you speak about yourself, or any situation in the world, you are referring to your personal I. Now if you can bypass the personal I then you wouldn't have the question. So if you realize you're not the personal I then who is left to become self-realized? No one.
When the I is gotten out of the way you become omnipresence. You become I am, not I am this or I am that, just I am. Now your I am is the I am of the universe, consciousness, absolute awareness. I am is your real nature. You have to awaken to that. Do not talk about it. Do not try to convince somebody else about it but simply awaken yourself to the fact that you are I am and that you have always been I am. If you can just reason that way then you wouldn't have anything to say after that.
Just say to yourself right now, “I am.” As soon as you say, “I am,” all of your so-called problems are resolved, your life is resolved, everything is resolved, and you're happy just by saying, “I am.” Feel it. “I am.” Doesn't it feel beautiful? There is nothing that comes after, “I am.” “I am” is it. There is nothing else.
Some people say, “I feel great as long as I'm at satsang, but as soon as I get home the world grabs hold of me and I get involved in problems. I get involved in worldly things.” Again you're talking about your personal I. So that's what you've got to look at intelligently. When you tell me, “I get involved in the world,” who is this I? You would never say I am gets involved in the world, because as soon as you say, “I am” you feel good, don't you? So when you say, “I get involved in the world," you are thinking of your body, your mind and your affairs. When you say, “I am,” it all goes away and you become free.
When you come to satsang the same thing happens. You're not creating anything here, because there's nothing to create. An awakening process takes place just like when you are dreaming. You think your dream is so interesting and nice and then you awaken and find yourself in this world. So it is when you begin to awaken in this world. You awaken to the fourth state of consciousness and you appear to be in this world to others, but you're no longer of this world. The body may appear to be real to others, but you realize and you understand that you have no body. I can assure you, I can swear to you, I can promise you that I have no body. Yet you look at me and say, “I see the body. I see you as a body.” So I ask you, "Who sees? Who sees the body?” You answer, "I do.” Who am I? Who am I that sees the body? Then there is silence.
It is difficult for some of us to understand this, that I have no body. What appears to happen when you're in my company at satsang is that your body consciousness begins to dissolve, simply because I understand that I am not the body. When I use the words "in my company" or “me” or “I,” try to remember always that I am not referring to Robert. Robert is a horse's ass. So when I say that you're in my company, I am not referring to me, because I am nothing as Robert. Whenever I use the terms “I,” or “me,” or "my," I always refer to consciousness, to omnipresence. So what I mean by you're in my company is that you are in the company of consciousness. There is no differentiation between my consciousness and your consciousness. I see you as consciousness, all I see is consciousness.
Again, it is a little difficult to understand. How do I see consciousness? Some people ask me, "Don't you see the body?” Yes, I see the body, but I see it as consciousness. I guess the only way to explain this is by analogy. Consciousness is like a gigantic screen and on this screen there are pictures showing, of bodies, of places, of mountains, of hills. The screen is aware of itself as the screen and knows that the objects are superimposed on itself. So it is constantly aware of itself being the screen, and it knows there are pictures of objects superimposed on the screen.
So it is with self-realization. I realize myself as consciousness, but I also know that the whole world, all the universe is also consciousness or the self. Everything is the self and I am that. That's what it means. Therefore, from now on whenever you hear me declare my confession, that I am absolute consciousness, and I am pure reality, I am sat-chit-ananda, I am ultimate oneness, I am that I am, nirvana, emptiness, this is what I am referring to.
All of this is the self, and I am that. The self is like a gigantic screen, with images superimposed on the screen. I am aware of the consciousness and of the images. I realize the images are false, yet I see them. My feelings, my thoughts, if there are any thoughts, are observable, but my awareness is always on consciousness. What does this mean? It means I can be watching a movie or television, I can go to an opera, I can be involved in all kinds of activities, but I am not involved in anything. I am free of them. Yet to others it appears that I am involved.
This is why I am no fun to be around. People can't understand how I can stay home by myself. They want to take me somewhere, be with me or feel sorry for me, thinking "Robert is by himself.” They say, "He should go out more often."
But where would I go? It really makes no difference where I am. Dana used to take me to a movie every once in a while. I would make out that I was enjoying myself. After the movie she liked to discuss it. I would never know what happened. I had no idea of what was going on.
Often people tell me about this place or that, actors and actresses, or about Iraq or other things. What do I have to do with that? I realize it is a problem with others, but it's very dim, it's like a dream. I am totally aware of consciousness. Everything else is like a little dream, some far away someplace.
So I can be anyplace and it is the same. For example, three different people arrived at my house to take me to satsang. Somehow they were not coordinated by someone. While they were there the carpet was being cleaned and they saw people working on my carpet. The hot water radiator leaked and the carpet was flooded. But all day I was watching these goings on sitting on the chair and I was totally happy. What kind of happiness does this mean?
People can be living or dying, working or whatever. How can they be unhappy? Nobody dies. Nothing is wrong. All is well. So how can I possibly be unhappy? It is impossible.
So at satsang something happens to you to cause you to feel this way also. There are people who have asked me, "Why should I want to be this way? Because you do nothing, you're good for nothing. You are no fun at a party, and you are no fun to be around.” But what is there for me to do? The main reason is this: don't you want to be God? Don't you want to be totally happy and blissful, where you are universal so to speak, where you feel and realize I am is the universe, and that I am is everything that exists? I am that. I am at peace. I am totally happy, total joy.
Everyone runs around with their problems trying to resolve them. I just look. I just watch. I wonder how can you believe you have a problem? Why do you think someone is trying to hurt you? Why do you believe someone is trying to take advantage of you? Why are you hurtable? You don't know why. The answer is simple. Because you are identified with the personal I. That is the only reason. Remember you cannot solve any problem by solving the problem itself. You've tried and it doesn't work. As I have said before, when one problem is solved another pops up somewhere else. It never ends. But when you annihilate the I, when the mind becomes quiescent, it rests in the heart, or a natural state, which is called the fourth state, after the waking, dreaming and sleeping states. It comes by itself.
Only a fool would say the sun doesn't exist because it is covered by clouds and cannot be seen. The clouds dissipate and the sun shines once again in all its splendor. So it is with us. We are covered with clouds of ignorance that make us believe that I am hurtable, I've been raped or taken advantage of. These are all lies. You are doing it to yourself because you are thinking past your nose. You are allowing your thoughts to run rampant. Your thoughts take you over continuously and lead you astray. By not putting a stop to this you are allowing it to happen. Is it any wonder you feel anger and frustration? This is because you don't put a stop to these thoughts when they begin. This is also true with thoughts of dying, sickness, or whatever. there is no such thing. Nothing exists but I am.
You should practice this form of meditation. When you inhale you say, “I.” When you exhale you say, “am.” If you have to meditate, meditate on that. The day will come when you will awaken, and you will not have to do anything. In the meanwhile do the best you can. While you are doing the best you can, realize that consciousness is what you are, and consciousness loves you. For you are its own. It will never leave you or forsake you.
If you can't do anything else surrender to consciousness. By surrender I mean surrender your ego, your problems, your emotions, your fears, your frustrations, fears and anger. Give it all up. Say, “Take it consciousness.”
If this is too abstract for you give it all to me. I will take it, chew it up for you, and spit it out. If you wake up in the morning and feel out of sorts, say, “OK, Robert, take this from me. I'm giving it to you.” I am happy to take it off your shoulders so that you can carry a lighter load. If that is what you have to do, do it.
By any means do not get carried away by your emotions. Stop in the middle and watch. Watch your emotions ruling you. Watch your fears controlling you. Watch your anger arise. Do not try to stop it. Just watch and observe. Look intelligently and realize who it is that is getting angry. It is not you. It is not even your ego, because there is no ego. It is not your body, because there is no body. It is not your mind, because there is no mind. Therefore, what is making you angry? Nothing.
Once there was a Zen monk who got angry every now and again. He would argue with his fellow monks and was always looking for something wrong to complain and whine about, and always telling others his troubles. A fellow monk told him to go see the roshi and ask for help. The roshi lived two miles down the road. He explained his problem to the roshi, who said, “Take my staff, and hold on to it. Whenever you get angry my staff will remind you to come to me and that will get rid of your anger for you.”
The monk returned to his quarters and soon became very angry at another monk. He looked at the staff, and remembered the roshi, and he jogged the two miles all the way. The roshi asked, “What is wrong?” The monk replied, “I got angry.” The roshi said, “Show me your anger.” But in the jogging the anger went away. He had nothing to show, and said, “I am not angry right now.” The roshi said, “Go back to your quarters, and when you get angry again come and tell me about it.” The next day he got angry again. He ran to the roshi and the same thing happened, his anger disappeared. This went on about twenty-five times.
Finally, the roshi said, “I'll tell you what to do now. When you get back to your quarters take my staff. When you get angry beat the living hell out of your anger with it.” This was so funny to the monk that he became realized. He became enlightened. He realized he would be using the staff to beat himself, and that his real self could never get angry. It was his body that appeared to be angry. He had run back and forth twenty-five times and the answer the roshi gave him made him open his eyes and become enlightened.
So it is with us. Do not look at your problem as a problem. Look at it as a no-thing. It does not exist. If your ego does not exist, if your body does not exist, if your mind does not exist, how can you be angry? Where would it come from? Who gave it birth? This is true of any other problem you believe you have. Just watch it. It will disappear, and you will awaken to your true self.
Now if you have any questions, feel free to ask anything you want. Do not be embarrassed. Ask about what we just discussed or about what is happening in your life. We are all one happy family, so feel free to ask anything.
(Long silence)
Robert: Well, I'll talk about something else.
I was talking about all the phone calls I've been receiving. People still ask what I think about this or that swami, this or that person, or why shouldn't they go to see other teachers as well? I really don't know what to say. You have to do what you have to do. I can tell you that the more people you see, the more confused you'll become. I don't care if you never come back here again, because I am not looking for anything.
If you do find a teacher that you seem to have an affinity for, you should stick around for a while. If you run from teacher to teacher you will become totally confused. Every teacher has their place. You will be attracted to the person you have to be with for as long as necessary. It depends on where your consciousness is.
There are three types of people that enter the spiritual path. The first is called the seeker, the second is called the disciple, and the third is called the devotee. The seekers are the worst ones because they never stop seeking. While they are at satsang they think about who they will see tomorrow. They never stop. They run from pillar to post; they go to India to seek a teacher, then to Hawaii or St. Louis when they hear about another teacher.
They are seekers, and this is good to an extent, because they are better off than the people who do nothing and think they are human. Unfortunately you can be a seeker for a thousand lifetimes without ending it. If you are a sincere seeker, with a heart that truly wishes to awaken, the time will come when you become a disciple.
The disciple finds a teacher and learns all they can from that teacher. Yet they still are not sure; they still have doubts. They still are interested in me, me, me, me, asking, “What am I getting out of this?” Also they still go to other teachers from time to time, even while staying around one particular teacher. They may be a disciple but they are not that close. If the disciple is sincere in their heart, with love and compassion, thinking kind feelings towards all, they will eventually become a devotee.
The devotee becomes the consciousness of the teacher. A devotee forgets all about him or herself. They could be in satsang where everyone is going wild, but the devotee sees nothing but the teacher. The devotee is oblivious to anything going on in satsang, but only has love and good feelings towards all. The devotee is interested in the teacher's welfare and ultimately becomes enlightened. It is the devotees that awaken before anyone else.
In which category are you? Ask yourself. To be truthful I would rather have five devotees around me, than ten thousand people who are seekers.
Are there any questions?
(Long silence)
Feel free to make comments.
Student: Robert, it sounds like you were describing bhaktas with the term devotee. Where does that leave the jnanis?
Robert: Bhaktas, devotees and jnanis are all the same. A real jnani is a devotee of the self, and the self is everywhere. So you are really a bhakta when you are a jnani. There is no differentiation.
Student: You're saying the jnani has a lot of love.
Robert: Yes, they are supposed to, or they wouldn't be a jnani.
Student: I mean an aspiring jnani.
Robert: They should be full of love and kindness, joy and peace.
Student: Then it is not very useful to make the distinction?
Robert: Who makes the distinction? The ajnani (the unenlightened). It is not the bhakta or the jnani who makes the distinction. If a devotee even knows about these things, they aspire for jnana, they aspire for bhakti, and they ultimately reach their goal because they learn to keep quiet, not talking or thinking too much. They just are quiet and watch. They fix their eyes on the teacher, like a lion has its eyes fixed on a rabbit. It sees nothing but the rabbit until it catches its prey. The real devotee identifies totally with the teacher, and finally becomes like the teacher.
Student: Robert, can all of these phases be passed through in one lifetime?
Robert: Yes, definitely. They can all be passed through instantaneously. Right now, this moment. You just have to wake up. There is no time. Time is an illusion.
Student: Robert, there are distinctions made between a gradual path and instantaneous enlightenment throughout the spiritual literature. A lot of this stuff about passing through stages. I can't relate to it. It just doesn't make any sense to me.
Robert: What can't you relate to?
Student: Just the idea that you pass through one stage to the next stage.
Robert: This is for the ajnani. This is for the person who is striving. The truth is there is nothing to pass through. It appears that some people, who need to understand these things so that they can research for themselves, will be helped tremendously by this. They will be able to see where they are coming from. Perhaps you don't need it. But it is there.
Student: The state of happiness you talk about I would not call happiness. The state that you talk about seems far above the happiness that is opposite to sadness.
Robert: You are right.
Student: Sadness could even come into that state you are in and it would only be some thing that was passing through with no identification.
Robert: You are right. As an example, I can cry at a funeral, but I realize who is crying. I can have sadness if I want to, but I am never really sad. You hit it right when you said that.
Student: The state of non-abiding mind, that's really the closest thing to it, isn't it?
Robert: That's true. I am looking for words to describe things. More importantly, there is always total happiness. It is not human happiness. There are no things involved. For most people to be happy there has to be a person, place or thing involved in their happiness. In true happiness there are no things involved to make you happy. It's a natural state. You will abide in that state forever.
Student: From the standpoint of practice, I have noticed that no matter what state arises, the problem is whether I am willing to let this go. Is it important for me to stay in this emotional state? The answer is that there is nothing you can do anyway as it comes and goes.
Robert: Act as if there is something you can do, even though there is nothing you can do. If you were passing a starving man in the room, don't think there is nothing you can do. Give him a piece of bread.
Student: But in that state of the mind arising, emotions arising, perceptions arising, there is nothing you can do.
Robert: Except watch. Just watch. Just observe.
Student: Even that, if you turn it into something you are doing, it is not what you are talking about. In Vipassana retreats you try to cultivate the mind that watches, but that couldn't be it.
Robert: No it's not. It's beyond that. You do that in the beginning. There is a procedure, a process, because that's where you're at, at the time; that's what you do; so you can't say that's wrong or right. It's just where you're at now. Another thing to consider is this -- if you were here as a visitor, having only one class with me, and you would never see me again, I would expound the highest truth to you, and take off. You would say how great that is. But when I see you twice a week or more I begin to know you quite well and everything I say is to help you grow because that is what is needed to be said to you at that time, since I'm going to be with you again. To people who were with Ramana as devotees, he didn't expound absolute truth to them all the time. He would talk to them like a normal person. He would inquire about their welfare, about their health and about their problems, and he would give them practical advice. He wouldn't say, “Nothing matters because nothing exists.” They had problems. So he would talk to them in a practical manner.
Student: Last night, Robert, my partner, who is pregnant...
Robert: Your partner is pregnant? Who's responsible?
Student: The child's coming in July, at least that's what we think. Last night…, being with a pregnant woman is a great practice of not taking anything personally. Her mood changes within five minutes, and last night, though, she got really anxious about taking care of the child, insurance, and where's the money going to come from. Working at the bookstore doesn't exactly bring in much money, and I remember getting caught up in the emotions. While I was doing that I was asking, “Who’s getting caught up in the emotions?” but still this body and emotions are getting caught up in it. There is the part that just kind of watches it and there's a part that's kind of retreating or not wanting to look at what she's dragging me into.
Robert: Since you're living with her, help her to the best of your ability. But be impersonal. Do not become attached to it. Practice non-attachment. Help her all you can. Be kind, gentle and do the best you can.
Student: It seemed like the most loving thing to do at the time would be to get insurance to help her fears and...
Robert: Well, if that's what you feel like doing, but just by being kind to her it will help. Be gentle and peaceful and realize what she's going through. That alone will take care of it. As far as you're concerned you realize the world she is coming from. She is involved in the personal I, and she's worried about her body and her affairs. Maybe you can help her in that way by telling her not to worry because God loves her and will take care of her and watch her. Everything will turn out all right. That kind of advice can be helpful.
Student: A lot of the time she doesn't take that too well.
Robert: Then just keep silent, and say it to yourself. If you can become calm and peaceful something within you will tell you what to do. You will be advised by the powers that be. The more calm you can make yourself, the more peaceful you can make yourself, the more you can control your mind, the greater the answer will be. You will know what to do and you'll do it for the good of all concerned.
Student: Robert, I have something to say. I don't know if it's a question though. I don't know if it's a statement either, but it seems to me sometimes that this is all very intellectual in spite of what you say. There's a lot of talking about the process, the asking about the I and all that kind of thing, and of course I've done a lot of reading like everybody else, and although I'm very critical of Gurdjeff, I was very interested in the idea of the dancing, of the work that was done. I mean physical work. As we know, there's dancing in other systems. and sometimes I feel that it's almost more important to give attention to the body as it moves through life and as it moves through the day in certain ways, and that this is this unconscious knowledge that we're looking for, the approach to what we're looking for. The body itself undergoes experiences that enlighten us, and this is in a different realm than our intellectual speculations. I know for example that when I dance, there's a place in Santa Monica called Dance Home, and sometimes at night you have fifty people dancing alone by themselves in a dark room with colored lights. To me this is a spiritual experience because there seems to be almost an integration of body-mind-spirit.
Robert: Of course, the average person cannot sit home alone and think because they go crazy. So you dance and become active, and it keeps you from going crazy from thinking. So what you're saying is true as far as that's concerned. But that's on a relative plane and you have to remember what body you're talking about. The body is transient, and you're not the same body you were twenty five years ago. You're not the same body you were when you were five years old. You're a completely different body, so what body are you referring to? Pretty soon your body will become old and crippled. So are you referring to that body that cannot dance any longer, that has no energy and no power, that has to sit in bed all day when you get to be ninety years old? So what body are you referring to? Why keep your mind on your body when you can keep your mind on your self that never changes and is imperishable. It was never born and can never die. That is permanent and that is your real nature. If you identify with that you will find eternal happiness and eternal peace. However, if you identify with the body like you're doing, it will grow old and what will you do then? It will be time to die and you will be disappointed.
Student: I don't think dance is identification with the body. If anything it is a removal from the body.
Robert: You're working with the body, so you have to think about your dance steps and you have to think about your dancing and having fun. It's all body work.
Student: Isn't it that one shouldn't mistake release of endorphins in the brain to be a spiritual experience?
Robert: That's true. Of course not. Endorphins in the brain have nothing to do with the self. The self is the self. It is self-contained, it is happy, it is peaceful and it's knowledge. Everything else is transitory, it comes and goes. The only free choice we have is with whom shall we identify, the body or the self? That's your choice. If you choose the body then you come back, life after life, after life, with other bodies, because if you identify with the body, there is not only one body, there are many bodies. It never ends. You are creating your own body, lifetime after lifetime until the time comes when you become disgusted with the body, and then true spirituality begins.
Another example: Say you love to go dancing, and you're coming home one day from a dance and you cross the street and a truck hits you and they have to amputate your legs. What do you think of that body? You have no legs and you can't dance. Now you have to stay in bed and you only think of the way you used to dance. You've wasted your time.
Student: Yes, but couldn't everything you've said about the body be applied to the mind also, because the mind, as you have said yourself, is just a tool to move beyond the mind.
Robert: Yes.
Student: So, if that can be said of the mind and if these attitudes can be had towards the mind they can also be had towards the body-mind. They are both illusory.
Robert: Of course. But you're using the body to realize that you're not the body. You're not using it to get further involved in relative things. You use the mind and the body to get rid of the mind and the body, not to get more involved. When you watch yourself, and you see yourself, and you ask yourself, “Who loves to dance? Who loves to do all these things? I do. Who is this I?” you're talking about your personal I again. Everything is attached to the personal I. When you remove the idea that there's a personal I, true happiness automatically ensues and there's no question about it. I do not have to consider if dancing is more fun than being the self. There is no comparison. Dancing is for the time only. Just like you're an artist and a writer. That's great, but it's for a time only. The time will come when you won't be able to do this anymore. You will be too old. Then what? You'll look back and you'll say, “Ah, I used to be an great artist, I used to be a great writer, I used to be a great dancer, but look at me now, I'm nothing.” Then you'll commit suicide perhaps, because you can no longer do what you used to do. You've been totally involved in the body consciousness. That's why I say find release now, find freedom now, so you don't have to go through this again and again and again.
Student: How does all of this stack up with your ideas about pursuing the life that is wonderful as it is, and being involved in activities with detachment?
Robert: You have no choice. The activity you are involved in you were meant to be involved in. Your mind will do what it has to do to make you fully involved. The freedom you have is simply the question, “Who am I? What is the source of I?” As you question your involvement in life, so to speak, will become less and less, and you will become happier and happier. But if you do not question you will become more and more deeply involved, until you think that is your life. You will grow older and older and drop dead one day. You will pick up another body and repeat the whole thing over again. There is no end to it.
Student: Robert, I have a question about two things that were already asked. One is, as you said, when we come to satsang we tend to pick up the feeling that is present, and when in the presence of someone having intense emotions we tend to become that. Also there is the question of gradual or sudden awakening. My question is, if we are subject to these emotions, is it necessary for us to work on ourselves and gradually not identify with them, or will this disidentification happen suddenly?
Robert: To work on yourself is simply to know I am not the body or these emotions. As you identify with your source everything will take care of itself. You do not work on the emotions because they will appear somewhere else. If you work on the source of your emotions, and realize that in reality there are no emotions to begin with because there is only the self, only then you can begin to mellow out. You awaken to the fact that the self alone exists and everything else is false.
Student: So it is gradual?
Robert: It depends. As you work on yourself, you can awaken instantaneously and be free of it, or it can be gradual. Everybody is different.
Student: Isn't there always a preliminary growth before the jumping takes place?
Robert: For some people. Some people just wake up. When you have a dream is there a preliminary before you wake up? Or do you just wake up? Everybody just wakes up. So it is with this. As you abide in the self one day you will just awaken and be free. Don't think of preliminaries. Focus on the self and everything will take care of itself.
Student: If we don’t see progress within ourselves, and see we are continually getting upset, we shouldn't let that bother us?
Robert: Keep observing, keep watching, keep focusing on the self, and there will be nobody to ask who is bothered or who is not bothered. You only ask such a question when your attention is more on the bothering than it is on the self. If you change your attention to the self, see what happens.
Student: The question is, is that gradual?
Robert: For some people. It depends on how much time you give to it.
Student: We can't just turn our emotions off. When I go to work, sometimes I find such an intensity there, with people snapping at each other, I get caught up in it. Of course I become aware, usually after the fact, asking myself, will this disappear gradually by abiding in myself, or will I someday suddenly awaken?
Robert: In the morning, when you first open your eyes, that's the time to work on yourself. Ask yourself, “Who am I? How did I get here?” Reconcile yourself with yourself. If you do that upon first waking up, the whole day will be good, without these problems. Just don't go straight to work. Get up an hour early if you have to. See yourself for what you are and realize the truth. Focus on the self. Ask yourself, “Who am I?” and wait. Concentrate on the source of I am, or say to yourself, “I am, I am,” and then go to work. Then you will see changes. You will build up a power that you will carry with yourself all day long.
Student: I am still confused about abiding in the self and you wake up. I don't think abidance in the self implies knowing the self or already being the self. Does it mean a gesture, such as deep self-inquiry, leads to an abiding In the self?
Robert: Abiding in the self is knowing I am, is being I am. When you say “I am,” you are abiding in the self.
Student: To follow the I to its source, to find the I by self-inquiry and to abide in it, seems to mean non-existence, statelessness.
Robert: Don't worry about being non-existent. Simply observe the I, and watch it going into the heart.
Student: It is not so much a following then, but that it happens by itself?
Robert: It happens by itself.
Student: When I contemplate I am, it means that already I am the self?
Robert: Yes it does.
Student: Is the personal self, which is saying, “I am,” different from the state I am? Is there a duality created?
Robert: Yes, you are using your mind. When you say, "I am,” you are transcending the personal I. You will open yourself up to your own reality.
Student: So abidance in self is taking place then?
Robert: Yes, it takes place right then and there.
Student: Robert, it's because we have the concept we are not the self that we miss the fact that we are abiding in the self all the time. As Ramesh said, we only have the doubt we are not the self, but the truth is we have always been it.
Robert: Exactly. When we don't see that, we go through all these troubles and play all these games, until we realize I am the self. Then that is it. But it's fun!
Student: If we don't have the self and we are saying, “I am it,” what is to keep that from becoming a parrot-like repetition?
Robert: It doesn't become a parrot-like repetition if you do it with your breath. When you inhale, say “I.” When you exhale, say, “am.” A subtle change of energy takes place within the self, and you will become more peaceful, calm, and soon you will lose all identification with your body and mind. You will remain as I am.
Student: In my state of ignorance I do not understand what you are talking about. It seems doing something as simple as saying. “I am,” coordinated with the breath, is the best I can do.
Robert: That's why you should do it. But also ask yourself, “Who thinks they are ignorant? Who believes they're not the self? I do. Who Am I?” Use the method that helps you the most. For some people, just saying I am does the trick. Other people have to work with their own I continuously. Self-inquiry is the fastest way to wake up.
Student: Contemplating I am is self-inquiry?
Robert: Of course it is.
Student: Ramana used to say we are the self but we don't remember, so we need to work on it. These methods of self-inquiry take many forms, and I can feel some movement of energy when I contemplate I am.
Robert: I am glad it is working for you, but be careful of these things. Don't be like the man from Los Angeles who called me, who was an air traffic controller. He stopped everything during one critical occasion, called me and asked, “Should I concentrate on I am when working during a crisis? Or should I forget about I am for now?” I wonder what happened to the airplanes.
Student: Robert, when we do self-inquiry, actually that is the beginning step to find the I. When we develop a sense of abiding in the I, there isn’t much need of inquiry because we go straight to the abidance.
Robert: Self-inquiry has no beginning. If you practice “Who Am I?” it is very powerful. It sounds simple but it is very powerful. Only say, “Who Am I?” then pause, then say it again, “Who Am I?” Never answer the question. But keep saying, “Who Am I?” Eventually, something will happen.
Student: I'm asking if you develop a sense of self-abidance you can watch states come and go, watch identification with the ego, and then self-inquiry is not necessary, if you can go directly to that.
Robert: If you are abiding in the self, there is no ego to watch, there is only the self. You watch the ego with the mind, not with the self. If you abide in the self there is nothing else. You are finished. You're cooked. Everything else is of the mind. When I say abide in the self I mean forget everything and be yourself. There is nothing else to know at that point.
Student: Robert, I was unable to understand the use of the breath in connection with I am.
Robert: When you inhale, you say, “I,” when you exhale, you say “am.” You will notice that your breathing begins to slow and the periods between I am become longer and longer. Soon you will lose body consciousness and get lost in I am itself. You will become consciousness -- I am.
Student: Rather frequently now I have periods where I become unaware of the body, and the heart seems to stop, and I am aware of not breathing. Then I get shot back into the body.
Robert: That is all of the mind. It all comes out of the mind. Go beyond all that. Pay no attention to that. Inquire to whom does that come and go beyond it. Abide in the self. We shouldn't get lost in procedures and methods. In reality procedures and methods do not exist. Only the self exists. Use the methods and procedures with a grain of salt. Try to stay at the source of I and be free. The more we talk about procedures the more lost we can get in them. Just be still and know that I am is God. By keeping the mind still we become God faster. Don't contemplate procedures. Do them if you must, but go beyond them quickly. Leave it behind. Abide in the I am.
Student: I think it was Nisargadatta who said that the sage gives a description of reality, not a prescription. He doesn't give you something to do. You go to a doctor for that. He tells you where it's at for your own recognition.
Robert: What you are saying is true, but note that all these words of Nisargadatta and Ramana were given to new students every time they came. Then they would go away. New students would come and they would ask the same questions and he would give the same answers. That is how all the books were written. But what did he do with his direct disciples and devotees? He was human to them. Do you know what I am saying?
Student: I can only take your word. I wasn't there. But it makes perfect sense.
Robert: This is why I said if I were not going to see you I would fill you with the absolute, totally and completely. When I see you all the time you tell me about your life and practices, we have a dialogue, a normal conversation.
Student: From what I understand about Ramana, the people around him were not practicing self-inquiry so much as devotion. They were putting more into the teachings than he was teaching.
Robert: Exactly! You are right. That is why sometimes I tell the story about the devotee who used to pull Ramana's fan. He used to stand by Ramana and pull his fan for forty years. One day he dropped dead. Ramana looked at him and told the devotees, "He's all cooked. He is not coming back again.”
Student: I understand they spent all their time contemplating him, tremendously. The contemplation of the master in his physical form, being close to him. I think that is all part of a jnani and his disciples. That's as valuable as questioning.
Robert: You are right. Absolutely. It is a combination of bhakti and jnana. That is why I said I would rather have five devotees than 5,000 lookers and searchers. The five devotees would become realized in this life.
(long silence)
Om, shanti, shanti, shanti.
Silence is the greatest teacher. Remember to love yourself, to bow to yourself, to pray to yourself and to worship yourself. God dwells in you as you. I love you. Peace.
Student: Isn't everything going right while you are thinking?
Robert: Yes, but you don't know it. Some of us don't think it is because some of us think, “I’ve got a problem,” or, “I'm involved in something I can't handle that's bigger than I am,” or, “Something hurts me,” or “I feel anger.” But I can assure you there is nothing wrong. Nothing has ever been wrong. Nothing is wrong now, and nothing will ever be wrong.
All that you have to do is watch yourself. As soon as your mind starts thinking past your nose, grab it - not your nose, but your thoughts. You can grab your nose too if you want. Grab your thoughts with your mind and put a stop to them any way you can, either by observing the thoughts or by practicing self-inquiring and asking to whom do they come.
Whatever you have to do, do not allow yourself to think. If your mind does not think you will be exceedingly happy. You will have unalloyed happiness. I can assure you of this. Total happiness if you stop yourself from thinking.
Recently someone asked me, "When will I experience self-realization?” This is determined by the consciousness of the person. I have a different answer for everybody because I take each person where they are. This is why I may sound contradictory sometimes. If you ask me a personal question I try to answer you from where you are.
Some people ask me, "Robert, why don't you just speak the highest truth all the time?” Some others tell me to speak so that they can understand what I am talking about. So that is the dilemma. So I do whatever I have to do. I plan nothing. Everything is extemporaneous. I have no rehearsals. I don't write anything down. I just say what comes out of me.
So when someone asks me on the phone, “When am I going to become self-realized,” or says “I have been practicing all week now, and nothing is happening," how do I respond? A man called me yesterday telling me he had been practicing for two weeks, took a seminar and paid seven hundred dollars, and he still isn't realized. I get calls like this all the time.
What you say determines the answer I give you. But there is a standard answer. Think of the question. “When will I, I, I, I, become self-realized, self-realized, self-realized, self-realized?” I usually ask a question before I answer this question. I ask, "Please tell me what do you mean by I?” Then I ask, "What do you mean by self-realization?” They usually become silent. So I ask further, "Who do you think the I is? Who wants to become self-realized?”
If you are speaking about the personal I, the personal I can never be self-realized. The personal I is finite. The finite can never know the infinite. That is why the personal I can never become self-realized. As long as you think you are the personal I, who needs to be self-realized, there never will be a time when you can become self-realized.
The word “self-realized,” what does it mean? It simply means your natural state. It is not something you become. It is something you are. To be self-realized means you wish to experience your natural state. What you want to do therefore is to awaken to your natural state, what you are now, but you've covered it over with the personal I. As long as you keep talking about, "I am this,” and, “I am that,” and, “I need to be self-realized,” or. I need to awaken," or. “I need to do anything,” it will never happen.
This is also true of your problems. When you think, “I have to solve a problem, I have to take responsibility," then you are referring to your personal I, and you will come up with relative ideas, and they will pull you further into problems. You will never resolve that point. Look back at your experience and you will see that what I am saying is true. When you try to use your personal I to solve a problem you may appear to solve it for awhile. Then another one will pop up now and again, and you go through your life trying to solve problem, after problem, after problem. You have to understand and see that intelligently. You have to look at that intelligently and realize that every time you speak about yourself, or any situation in the world, you are referring to your personal I. Now if you can bypass the personal I then you wouldn't have the question. So if you realize you're not the personal I then who is left to become self-realized? No one.
When the I is gotten out of the way you become omnipresence. You become I am, not I am this or I am that, just I am. Now your I am is the I am of the universe, consciousness, absolute awareness. I am is your real nature. You have to awaken to that. Do not talk about it. Do not try to convince somebody else about it but simply awaken yourself to the fact that you are I am and that you have always been I am. If you can just reason that way then you wouldn't have anything to say after that.
Just say to yourself right now, “I am.” As soon as you say, “I am,” all of your so-called problems are resolved, your life is resolved, everything is resolved, and you're happy just by saying, “I am.” Feel it. “I am.” Doesn't it feel beautiful? There is nothing that comes after, “I am.” “I am” is it. There is nothing else.
Some people say, “I feel great as long as I'm at satsang, but as soon as I get home the world grabs hold of me and I get involved in problems. I get involved in worldly things.” Again you're talking about your personal I. So that's what you've got to look at intelligently. When you tell me, “I get involved in the world,” who is this I? You would never say I am gets involved in the world, because as soon as you say, “I am” you feel good, don't you? So when you say, “I get involved in the world," you are thinking of your body, your mind and your affairs. When you say, “I am,” it all goes away and you become free.
When you come to satsang the same thing happens. You're not creating anything here, because there's nothing to create. An awakening process takes place just like when you are dreaming. You think your dream is so interesting and nice and then you awaken and find yourself in this world. So it is when you begin to awaken in this world. You awaken to the fourth state of consciousness and you appear to be in this world to others, but you're no longer of this world. The body may appear to be real to others, but you realize and you understand that you have no body. I can assure you, I can swear to you, I can promise you that I have no body. Yet you look at me and say, “I see the body. I see you as a body.” So I ask you, "Who sees? Who sees the body?” You answer, "I do.” Who am I? Who am I that sees the body? Then there is silence.
It is difficult for some of us to understand this, that I have no body. What appears to happen when you're in my company at satsang is that your body consciousness begins to dissolve, simply because I understand that I am not the body. When I use the words "in my company" or “me” or “I,” try to remember always that I am not referring to Robert. Robert is a horse's ass. So when I say that you're in my company, I am not referring to me, because I am nothing as Robert. Whenever I use the terms “I,” or “me,” or "my," I always refer to consciousness, to omnipresence. So what I mean by you're in my company is that you are in the company of consciousness. There is no differentiation between my consciousness and your consciousness. I see you as consciousness, all I see is consciousness.
Again, it is a little difficult to understand. How do I see consciousness? Some people ask me, "Don't you see the body?” Yes, I see the body, but I see it as consciousness. I guess the only way to explain this is by analogy. Consciousness is like a gigantic screen and on this screen there are pictures showing, of bodies, of places, of mountains, of hills. The screen is aware of itself as the screen and knows that the objects are superimposed on itself. So it is constantly aware of itself being the screen, and it knows there are pictures of objects superimposed on the screen.
So it is with self-realization. I realize myself as consciousness, but I also know that the whole world, all the universe is also consciousness or the self. Everything is the self and I am that. That's what it means. Therefore, from now on whenever you hear me declare my confession, that I am absolute consciousness, and I am pure reality, I am sat-chit-ananda, I am ultimate oneness, I am that I am, nirvana, emptiness, this is what I am referring to.
All of this is the self, and I am that. The self is like a gigantic screen, with images superimposed on the screen. I am aware of the consciousness and of the images. I realize the images are false, yet I see them. My feelings, my thoughts, if there are any thoughts, are observable, but my awareness is always on consciousness. What does this mean? It means I can be watching a movie or television, I can go to an opera, I can be involved in all kinds of activities, but I am not involved in anything. I am free of them. Yet to others it appears that I am involved.
This is why I am no fun to be around. People can't understand how I can stay home by myself. They want to take me somewhere, be with me or feel sorry for me, thinking "Robert is by himself.” They say, "He should go out more often."
But where would I go? It really makes no difference where I am. Dana used to take me to a movie every once in a while. I would make out that I was enjoying myself. After the movie she liked to discuss it. I would never know what happened. I had no idea of what was going on.
Often people tell me about this place or that, actors and actresses, or about Iraq or other things. What do I have to do with that? I realize it is a problem with others, but it's very dim, it's like a dream. I am totally aware of consciousness. Everything else is like a little dream, some far away someplace.
So I can be anyplace and it is the same. For example, three different people arrived at my house to take me to satsang. Somehow they were not coordinated by someone. While they were there the carpet was being cleaned and they saw people working on my carpet. The hot water radiator leaked and the carpet was flooded. But all day I was watching these goings on sitting on the chair and I was totally happy. What kind of happiness does this mean?
People can be living or dying, working or whatever. How can they be unhappy? Nobody dies. Nothing is wrong. All is well. So how can I possibly be unhappy? It is impossible.
So at satsang something happens to you to cause you to feel this way also. There are people who have asked me, "Why should I want to be this way? Because you do nothing, you're good for nothing. You are no fun at a party, and you are no fun to be around.” But what is there for me to do? The main reason is this: don't you want to be God? Don't you want to be totally happy and blissful, where you are universal so to speak, where you feel and realize I am is the universe, and that I am is everything that exists? I am that. I am at peace. I am totally happy, total joy.
Everyone runs around with their problems trying to resolve them. I just look. I just watch. I wonder how can you believe you have a problem? Why do you think someone is trying to hurt you? Why do you believe someone is trying to take advantage of you? Why are you hurtable? You don't know why. The answer is simple. Because you are identified with the personal I. That is the only reason. Remember you cannot solve any problem by solving the problem itself. You've tried and it doesn't work. As I have said before, when one problem is solved another pops up somewhere else. It never ends. But when you annihilate the I, when the mind becomes quiescent, it rests in the heart, or a natural state, which is called the fourth state, after the waking, dreaming and sleeping states. It comes by itself.
Only a fool would say the sun doesn't exist because it is covered by clouds and cannot be seen. The clouds dissipate and the sun shines once again in all its splendor. So it is with us. We are covered with clouds of ignorance that make us believe that I am hurtable, I've been raped or taken advantage of. These are all lies. You are doing it to yourself because you are thinking past your nose. You are allowing your thoughts to run rampant. Your thoughts take you over continuously and lead you astray. By not putting a stop to this you are allowing it to happen. Is it any wonder you feel anger and frustration? This is because you don't put a stop to these thoughts when they begin. This is also true with thoughts of dying, sickness, or whatever. there is no such thing. Nothing exists but I am.
You should practice this form of meditation. When you inhale you say, “I.” When you exhale you say, “am.” If you have to meditate, meditate on that. The day will come when you will awaken, and you will not have to do anything. In the meanwhile do the best you can. While you are doing the best you can, realize that consciousness is what you are, and consciousness loves you. For you are its own. It will never leave you or forsake you.
If you can't do anything else surrender to consciousness. By surrender I mean surrender your ego, your problems, your emotions, your fears, your frustrations, fears and anger. Give it all up. Say, “Take it consciousness.”
If this is too abstract for you give it all to me. I will take it, chew it up for you, and spit it out. If you wake up in the morning and feel out of sorts, say, “OK, Robert, take this from me. I'm giving it to you.” I am happy to take it off your shoulders so that you can carry a lighter load. If that is what you have to do, do it.
By any means do not get carried away by your emotions. Stop in the middle and watch. Watch your emotions ruling you. Watch your fears controlling you. Watch your anger arise. Do not try to stop it. Just watch and observe. Look intelligently and realize who it is that is getting angry. It is not you. It is not even your ego, because there is no ego. It is not your body, because there is no body. It is not your mind, because there is no mind. Therefore, what is making you angry? Nothing.
Once there was a Zen monk who got angry every now and again. He would argue with his fellow monks and was always looking for something wrong to complain and whine about, and always telling others his troubles. A fellow monk told him to go see the roshi and ask for help. The roshi lived two miles down the road. He explained his problem to the roshi, who said, “Take my staff, and hold on to it. Whenever you get angry my staff will remind you to come to me and that will get rid of your anger for you.”
The monk returned to his quarters and soon became very angry at another monk. He looked at the staff, and remembered the roshi, and he jogged the two miles all the way. The roshi asked, “What is wrong?” The monk replied, “I got angry.” The roshi said, “Show me your anger.” But in the jogging the anger went away. He had nothing to show, and said, “I am not angry right now.” The roshi said, “Go back to your quarters, and when you get angry again come and tell me about it.” The next day he got angry again. He ran to the roshi and the same thing happened, his anger disappeared. This went on about twenty-five times.
Finally, the roshi said, “I'll tell you what to do now. When you get back to your quarters take my staff. When you get angry beat the living hell out of your anger with it.” This was so funny to the monk that he became realized. He became enlightened. He realized he would be using the staff to beat himself, and that his real self could never get angry. It was his body that appeared to be angry. He had run back and forth twenty-five times and the answer the roshi gave him made him open his eyes and become enlightened.
So it is with us. Do not look at your problem as a problem. Look at it as a no-thing. It does not exist. If your ego does not exist, if your body does not exist, if your mind does not exist, how can you be angry? Where would it come from? Who gave it birth? This is true of any other problem you believe you have. Just watch it. It will disappear, and you will awaken to your true self.
Now if you have any questions, feel free to ask anything you want. Do not be embarrassed. Ask about what we just discussed or about what is happening in your life. We are all one happy family, so feel free to ask anything.
(Long silence)
Robert: Well, I'll talk about something else.
I was talking about all the phone calls I've been receiving. People still ask what I think about this or that swami, this or that person, or why shouldn't they go to see other teachers as well? I really don't know what to say. You have to do what you have to do. I can tell you that the more people you see, the more confused you'll become. I don't care if you never come back here again, because I am not looking for anything.
If you do find a teacher that you seem to have an affinity for, you should stick around for a while. If you run from teacher to teacher you will become totally confused. Every teacher has their place. You will be attracted to the person you have to be with for as long as necessary. It depends on where your consciousness is.
There are three types of people that enter the spiritual path. The first is called the seeker, the second is called the disciple, and the third is called the devotee. The seekers are the worst ones because they never stop seeking. While they are at satsang they think about who they will see tomorrow. They never stop. They run from pillar to post; they go to India to seek a teacher, then to Hawaii or St. Louis when they hear about another teacher.
They are seekers, and this is good to an extent, because they are better off than the people who do nothing and think they are human. Unfortunately you can be a seeker for a thousand lifetimes without ending it. If you are a sincere seeker, with a heart that truly wishes to awaken, the time will come when you become a disciple.
The disciple finds a teacher and learns all they can from that teacher. Yet they still are not sure; they still have doubts. They still are interested in me, me, me, me, asking, “What am I getting out of this?” Also they still go to other teachers from time to time, even while staying around one particular teacher. They may be a disciple but they are not that close. If the disciple is sincere in their heart, with love and compassion, thinking kind feelings towards all, they will eventually become a devotee.
The devotee becomes the consciousness of the teacher. A devotee forgets all about him or herself. They could be in satsang where everyone is going wild, but the devotee sees nothing but the teacher. The devotee is oblivious to anything going on in satsang, but only has love and good feelings towards all. The devotee is interested in the teacher's welfare and ultimately becomes enlightened. It is the devotees that awaken before anyone else.
In which category are you? Ask yourself. To be truthful I would rather have five devotees around me, than ten thousand people who are seekers.
Are there any questions?
(Long silence)
Feel free to make comments.
Student: Robert, it sounds like you were describing bhaktas with the term devotee. Where does that leave the jnanis?
Robert: Bhaktas, devotees and jnanis are all the same. A real jnani is a devotee of the self, and the self is everywhere. So you are really a bhakta when you are a jnani. There is no differentiation.
Student: You're saying the jnani has a lot of love.
Robert: Yes, they are supposed to, or they wouldn't be a jnani.
Student: I mean an aspiring jnani.
Robert: They should be full of love and kindness, joy and peace.
Student: Then it is not very useful to make the distinction?
Robert: Who makes the distinction? The ajnani (the unenlightened). It is not the bhakta or the jnani who makes the distinction. If a devotee even knows about these things, they aspire for jnana, they aspire for bhakti, and they ultimately reach their goal because they learn to keep quiet, not talking or thinking too much. They just are quiet and watch. They fix their eyes on the teacher, like a lion has its eyes fixed on a rabbit. It sees nothing but the rabbit until it catches its prey. The real devotee identifies totally with the teacher, and finally becomes like the teacher.
Student: Robert, can all of these phases be passed through in one lifetime?
Robert: Yes, definitely. They can all be passed through instantaneously. Right now, this moment. You just have to wake up. There is no time. Time is an illusion.
Student: Robert, there are distinctions made between a gradual path and instantaneous enlightenment throughout the spiritual literature. A lot of this stuff about passing through stages. I can't relate to it. It just doesn't make any sense to me.
Robert: What can't you relate to?
Student: Just the idea that you pass through one stage to the next stage.
Robert: This is for the ajnani. This is for the person who is striving. The truth is there is nothing to pass through. It appears that some people, who need to understand these things so that they can research for themselves, will be helped tremendously by this. They will be able to see where they are coming from. Perhaps you don't need it. But it is there.
Student: The state of happiness you talk about I would not call happiness. The state that you talk about seems far above the happiness that is opposite to sadness.
Robert: You are right.
Student: Sadness could even come into that state you are in and it would only be some thing that was passing through with no identification.
Robert: You are right. As an example, I can cry at a funeral, but I realize who is crying. I can have sadness if I want to, but I am never really sad. You hit it right when you said that.
Student: The state of non-abiding mind, that's really the closest thing to it, isn't it?
Robert: That's true. I am looking for words to describe things. More importantly, there is always total happiness. It is not human happiness. There are no things involved. For most people to be happy there has to be a person, place or thing involved in their happiness. In true happiness there are no things involved to make you happy. It's a natural state. You will abide in that state forever.
Student: From the standpoint of practice, I have noticed that no matter what state arises, the problem is whether I am willing to let this go. Is it important for me to stay in this emotional state? The answer is that there is nothing you can do anyway as it comes and goes.
Robert: Act as if there is something you can do, even though there is nothing you can do. If you were passing a starving man in the room, don't think there is nothing you can do. Give him a piece of bread.
Student: But in that state of the mind arising, emotions arising, perceptions arising, there is nothing you can do.
Robert: Except watch. Just watch. Just observe.
Student: Even that, if you turn it into something you are doing, it is not what you are talking about. In Vipassana retreats you try to cultivate the mind that watches, but that couldn't be it.
Robert: No it's not. It's beyond that. You do that in the beginning. There is a procedure, a process, because that's where you're at, at the time; that's what you do; so you can't say that's wrong or right. It's just where you're at now. Another thing to consider is this -- if you were here as a visitor, having only one class with me, and you would never see me again, I would expound the highest truth to you, and take off. You would say how great that is. But when I see you twice a week or more I begin to know you quite well and everything I say is to help you grow because that is what is needed to be said to you at that time, since I'm going to be with you again. To people who were with Ramana as devotees, he didn't expound absolute truth to them all the time. He would talk to them like a normal person. He would inquire about their welfare, about their health and about their problems, and he would give them practical advice. He wouldn't say, “Nothing matters because nothing exists.” They had problems. So he would talk to them in a practical manner.
Student: Last night, Robert, my partner, who is pregnant...
Robert: Your partner is pregnant? Who's responsible?
Student: The child's coming in July, at least that's what we think. Last night…, being with a pregnant woman is a great practice of not taking anything personally. Her mood changes within five minutes, and last night, though, she got really anxious about taking care of the child, insurance, and where's the money going to come from. Working at the bookstore doesn't exactly bring in much money, and I remember getting caught up in the emotions. While I was doing that I was asking, “Who’s getting caught up in the emotions?” but still this body and emotions are getting caught up in it. There is the part that just kind of watches it and there's a part that's kind of retreating or not wanting to look at what she's dragging me into.
Robert: Since you're living with her, help her to the best of your ability. But be impersonal. Do not become attached to it. Practice non-attachment. Help her all you can. Be kind, gentle and do the best you can.
Student: It seemed like the most loving thing to do at the time would be to get insurance to help her fears and...
Robert: Well, if that's what you feel like doing, but just by being kind to her it will help. Be gentle and peaceful and realize what she's going through. That alone will take care of it. As far as you're concerned you realize the world she is coming from. She is involved in the personal I, and she's worried about her body and her affairs. Maybe you can help her in that way by telling her not to worry because God loves her and will take care of her and watch her. Everything will turn out all right. That kind of advice can be helpful.
Student: A lot of the time she doesn't take that too well.
Robert: Then just keep silent, and say it to yourself. If you can become calm and peaceful something within you will tell you what to do. You will be advised by the powers that be. The more calm you can make yourself, the more peaceful you can make yourself, the more you can control your mind, the greater the answer will be. You will know what to do and you'll do it for the good of all concerned.
Student: Robert, I have something to say. I don't know if it's a question though. I don't know if it's a statement either, but it seems to me sometimes that this is all very intellectual in spite of what you say. There's a lot of talking about the process, the asking about the I and all that kind of thing, and of course I've done a lot of reading like everybody else, and although I'm very critical of Gurdjeff, I was very interested in the idea of the dancing, of the work that was done. I mean physical work. As we know, there's dancing in other systems. and sometimes I feel that it's almost more important to give attention to the body as it moves through life and as it moves through the day in certain ways, and that this is this unconscious knowledge that we're looking for, the approach to what we're looking for. The body itself undergoes experiences that enlighten us, and this is in a different realm than our intellectual speculations. I know for example that when I dance, there's a place in Santa Monica called Dance Home, and sometimes at night you have fifty people dancing alone by themselves in a dark room with colored lights. To me this is a spiritual experience because there seems to be almost an integration of body-mind-spirit.
Robert: Of course, the average person cannot sit home alone and think because they go crazy. So you dance and become active, and it keeps you from going crazy from thinking. So what you're saying is true as far as that's concerned. But that's on a relative plane and you have to remember what body you're talking about. The body is transient, and you're not the same body you were twenty five years ago. You're not the same body you were when you were five years old. You're a completely different body, so what body are you referring to? Pretty soon your body will become old and crippled. So are you referring to that body that cannot dance any longer, that has no energy and no power, that has to sit in bed all day when you get to be ninety years old? So what body are you referring to? Why keep your mind on your body when you can keep your mind on your self that never changes and is imperishable. It was never born and can never die. That is permanent and that is your real nature. If you identify with that you will find eternal happiness and eternal peace. However, if you identify with the body like you're doing, it will grow old and what will you do then? It will be time to die and you will be disappointed.
Student: I don't think dance is identification with the body. If anything it is a removal from the body.
Robert: You're working with the body, so you have to think about your dance steps and you have to think about your dancing and having fun. It's all body work.
Student: Isn't it that one shouldn't mistake release of endorphins in the brain to be a spiritual experience?
Robert: That's true. Of course not. Endorphins in the brain have nothing to do with the self. The self is the self. It is self-contained, it is happy, it is peaceful and it's knowledge. Everything else is transitory, it comes and goes. The only free choice we have is with whom shall we identify, the body or the self? That's your choice. If you choose the body then you come back, life after life, after life, with other bodies, because if you identify with the body, there is not only one body, there are many bodies. It never ends. You are creating your own body, lifetime after lifetime until the time comes when you become disgusted with the body, and then true spirituality begins.
Another example: Say you love to go dancing, and you're coming home one day from a dance and you cross the street and a truck hits you and they have to amputate your legs. What do you think of that body? You have no legs and you can't dance. Now you have to stay in bed and you only think of the way you used to dance. You've wasted your time.
Student: Yes, but couldn't everything you've said about the body be applied to the mind also, because the mind, as you have said yourself, is just a tool to move beyond the mind.
Robert: Yes.
Student: So, if that can be said of the mind and if these attitudes can be had towards the mind they can also be had towards the body-mind. They are both illusory.
Robert: Of course. But you're using the body to realize that you're not the body. You're not using it to get further involved in relative things. You use the mind and the body to get rid of the mind and the body, not to get more involved. When you watch yourself, and you see yourself, and you ask yourself, “Who loves to dance? Who loves to do all these things? I do. Who is this I?” you're talking about your personal I again. Everything is attached to the personal I. When you remove the idea that there's a personal I, true happiness automatically ensues and there's no question about it. I do not have to consider if dancing is more fun than being the self. There is no comparison. Dancing is for the time only. Just like you're an artist and a writer. That's great, but it's for a time only. The time will come when you won't be able to do this anymore. You will be too old. Then what? You'll look back and you'll say, “Ah, I used to be an great artist, I used to be a great writer, I used to be a great dancer, but look at me now, I'm nothing.” Then you'll commit suicide perhaps, because you can no longer do what you used to do. You've been totally involved in the body consciousness. That's why I say find release now, find freedom now, so you don't have to go through this again and again and again.
Student: How does all of this stack up with your ideas about pursuing the life that is wonderful as it is, and being involved in activities with detachment?
Robert: You have no choice. The activity you are involved in you were meant to be involved in. Your mind will do what it has to do to make you fully involved. The freedom you have is simply the question, “Who am I? What is the source of I?” As you question your involvement in life, so to speak, will become less and less, and you will become happier and happier. But if you do not question you will become more and more deeply involved, until you think that is your life. You will grow older and older and drop dead one day. You will pick up another body and repeat the whole thing over again. There is no end to it.
Student: Robert, I have a question about two things that were already asked. One is, as you said, when we come to satsang we tend to pick up the feeling that is present, and when in the presence of someone having intense emotions we tend to become that. Also there is the question of gradual or sudden awakening. My question is, if we are subject to these emotions, is it necessary for us to work on ourselves and gradually not identify with them, or will this disidentification happen suddenly?
Robert: To work on yourself is simply to know I am not the body or these emotions. As you identify with your source everything will take care of itself. You do not work on the emotions because they will appear somewhere else. If you work on the source of your emotions, and realize that in reality there are no emotions to begin with because there is only the self, only then you can begin to mellow out. You awaken to the fact that the self alone exists and everything else is false.
Student: So it is gradual?
Robert: It depends. As you work on yourself, you can awaken instantaneously and be free of it, or it can be gradual. Everybody is different.
Student: Isn't there always a preliminary growth before the jumping takes place?
Robert: For some people. Some people just wake up. When you have a dream is there a preliminary before you wake up? Or do you just wake up? Everybody just wakes up. So it is with this. As you abide in the self one day you will just awaken and be free. Don't think of preliminaries. Focus on the self and everything will take care of itself.
Student: If we don’t see progress within ourselves, and see we are continually getting upset, we shouldn't let that bother us?
Robert: Keep observing, keep watching, keep focusing on the self, and there will be nobody to ask who is bothered or who is not bothered. You only ask such a question when your attention is more on the bothering than it is on the self. If you change your attention to the self, see what happens.
Student: The question is, is that gradual?
Robert: For some people. It depends on how much time you give to it.
Student: We can't just turn our emotions off. When I go to work, sometimes I find such an intensity there, with people snapping at each other, I get caught up in it. Of course I become aware, usually after the fact, asking myself, will this disappear gradually by abiding in myself, or will I someday suddenly awaken?
Robert: In the morning, when you first open your eyes, that's the time to work on yourself. Ask yourself, “Who am I? How did I get here?” Reconcile yourself with yourself. If you do that upon first waking up, the whole day will be good, without these problems. Just don't go straight to work. Get up an hour early if you have to. See yourself for what you are and realize the truth. Focus on the self. Ask yourself, “Who am I?” and wait. Concentrate on the source of I am, or say to yourself, “I am, I am,” and then go to work. Then you will see changes. You will build up a power that you will carry with yourself all day long.
Student: I am still confused about abiding in the self and you wake up. I don't think abidance in the self implies knowing the self or already being the self. Does it mean a gesture, such as deep self-inquiry, leads to an abiding In the self?
Robert: Abiding in the self is knowing I am, is being I am. When you say “I am,” you are abiding in the self.
Student: To follow the I to its source, to find the I by self-inquiry and to abide in it, seems to mean non-existence, statelessness.
Robert: Don't worry about being non-existent. Simply observe the I, and watch it going into the heart.
Student: It is not so much a following then, but that it happens by itself?
Robert: It happens by itself.
Student: When I contemplate I am, it means that already I am the self?
Robert: Yes it does.
Student: Is the personal self, which is saying, “I am,” different from the state I am? Is there a duality created?
Robert: Yes, you are using your mind. When you say, "I am,” you are transcending the personal I. You will open yourself up to your own reality.
Student: So abidance in self is taking place then?
Robert: Yes, it takes place right then and there.
Student: Robert, it's because we have the concept we are not the self that we miss the fact that we are abiding in the self all the time. As Ramesh said, we only have the doubt we are not the self, but the truth is we have always been it.
Robert: Exactly. When we don't see that, we go through all these troubles and play all these games, until we realize I am the self. Then that is it. But it's fun!
Student: If we don't have the self and we are saying, “I am it,” what is to keep that from becoming a parrot-like repetition?
Robert: It doesn't become a parrot-like repetition if you do it with your breath. When you inhale, say “I.” When you exhale, say, “am.” A subtle change of energy takes place within the self, and you will become more peaceful, calm, and soon you will lose all identification with your body and mind. You will remain as I am.
Student: In my state of ignorance I do not understand what you are talking about. It seems doing something as simple as saying. “I am,” coordinated with the breath, is the best I can do.
Robert: That's why you should do it. But also ask yourself, “Who thinks they are ignorant? Who believes they're not the self? I do. Who Am I?” Use the method that helps you the most. For some people, just saying I am does the trick. Other people have to work with their own I continuously. Self-inquiry is the fastest way to wake up.
Student: Contemplating I am is self-inquiry?
Robert: Of course it is.
Student: Ramana used to say we are the self but we don't remember, so we need to work on it. These methods of self-inquiry take many forms, and I can feel some movement of energy when I contemplate I am.
Robert: I am glad it is working for you, but be careful of these things. Don't be like the man from Los Angeles who called me, who was an air traffic controller. He stopped everything during one critical occasion, called me and asked, “Should I concentrate on I am when working during a crisis? Or should I forget about I am for now?” I wonder what happened to the airplanes.
Student: Robert, when we do self-inquiry, actually that is the beginning step to find the I. When we develop a sense of abiding in the I, there isn’t much need of inquiry because we go straight to the abidance.
Robert: Self-inquiry has no beginning. If you practice “Who Am I?” it is very powerful. It sounds simple but it is very powerful. Only say, “Who Am I?” then pause, then say it again, “Who Am I?” Never answer the question. But keep saying, “Who Am I?” Eventually, something will happen.
Student: I'm asking if you develop a sense of self-abidance you can watch states come and go, watch identification with the ego, and then self-inquiry is not necessary, if you can go directly to that.
Robert: If you are abiding in the self, there is no ego to watch, there is only the self. You watch the ego with the mind, not with the self. If you abide in the self there is nothing else. You are finished. You're cooked. Everything else is of the mind. When I say abide in the self I mean forget everything and be yourself. There is nothing else to know at that point.
Student: Robert, I was unable to understand the use of the breath in connection with I am.
Robert: When you inhale, you say, “I,” when you exhale, you say “am.” You will notice that your breathing begins to slow and the periods between I am become longer and longer. Soon you will lose body consciousness and get lost in I am itself. You will become consciousness -- I am.
Student: Rather frequently now I have periods where I become unaware of the body, and the heart seems to stop, and I am aware of not breathing. Then I get shot back into the body.
Robert: That is all of the mind. It all comes out of the mind. Go beyond all that. Pay no attention to that. Inquire to whom does that come and go beyond it. Abide in the self. We shouldn't get lost in procedures and methods. In reality procedures and methods do not exist. Only the self exists. Use the methods and procedures with a grain of salt. Try to stay at the source of I and be free. The more we talk about procedures the more lost we can get in them. Just be still and know that I am is God. By keeping the mind still we become God faster. Don't contemplate procedures. Do them if you must, but go beyond them quickly. Leave it behind. Abide in the I am.
Student: I think it was Nisargadatta who said that the sage gives a description of reality, not a prescription. He doesn't give you something to do. You go to a doctor for that. He tells you where it's at for your own recognition.
Robert: What you are saying is true, but note that all these words of Nisargadatta and Ramana were given to new students every time they came. Then they would go away. New students would come and they would ask the same questions and he would give the same answers. That is how all the books were written. But what did he do with his direct disciples and devotees? He was human to them. Do you know what I am saying?
Student: I can only take your word. I wasn't there. But it makes perfect sense.
Robert: This is why I said if I were not going to see you I would fill you with the absolute, totally and completely. When I see you all the time you tell me about your life and practices, we have a dialogue, a normal conversation.
Student: From what I understand about Ramana, the people around him were not practicing self-inquiry so much as devotion. They were putting more into the teachings than he was teaching.
Robert: Exactly! You are right. That is why sometimes I tell the story about the devotee who used to pull Ramana's fan. He used to stand by Ramana and pull his fan for forty years. One day he dropped dead. Ramana looked at him and told the devotees, "He's all cooked. He is not coming back again.”
Student: I understand they spent all their time contemplating him, tremendously. The contemplation of the master in his physical form, being close to him. I think that is all part of a jnani and his disciples. That's as valuable as questioning.
Robert: You are right. Absolutely. It is a combination of bhakti and jnana. That is why I said I would rather have five devotees than 5,000 lookers and searchers. The five devotees would become realized in this life.
(long silence)
Om, shanti, shanti, shanti.
Silence is the greatest teacher. Remember to love yourself, to bow to yourself, to pray to yourself and to worship yourself. God dwells in you as you. I love you. Peace.